Curse

Terra Xin · Jul 12, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

I wanted to post this up in the commuity works, but it has some stuff which is more for discussion than anything, that, and I needed a place to store it anyway. And this is the bes... well... more appropriate place to put this up in.

Enjoy the read^^

Skill Writing - Attacking

After having a deep conversation with someone in GW over the definiton of Illusionary Weaponry, and then taking in awe the skill of the person who wrote up the elite, I decided to post my thoughts on Attacking. I've also seen quite a few observations and critisisms made about certain skills that incorporate this concept, and although they may not be wrong, by reading this I hope to shed some light onto those who may otherwise misinterpret the definition of skills, and therefore bring a better understanding to some of the concepts that linger about.

The problems that I face with typing this out is that there are multiple uses (and interpretations) of the word "attack" and it's definition is made aparent depending on how it is used in a sentence. In most cases the distinction can be made, but where the distinction is somewhat vague, that is where the skill description should be changed. I'll be indicating areas of possible flaws in the current skill writing also.

Any references used will be given within the relevant text. A related article about this subject that discusses the Game Mechanics on Combat can be found here for those who may be interesed.

Any feedback will be appreciated and I'll do my best to answer any questions that you may have^^. If I get good responses, I'll head over to Guild Wiki and make some changes... But i'll argue them here first^^.

EDIT: Certain skills that I have listed haven't been tested to see if they fit the category i've put them in. I'm currently staying at a friends house who doesn't own GW, so i'll update this when I get back.

Attack

Method: In this exact order is what happens to an attack from start to finish.

Definition: Melee
A melee Attack begins from the moment the weapon is swung, and ends just before the weapon strikes or misses. A complete attack ends when the weapon strikes or misses.

Definition: Ranged
A ranged Attack begins from the moment the weapon is drawn, and ends just before the projectile is launched. A complete attack ends when the projectile lands. For a wand or staff, the projectile cannot be directly influenced once it has been fired and is travelling through the air, whilist the arrow from a bow can be directly influenced by altering the speed at which the bow travels at. Skills such as Favourable winds, Broadheaded Arrow and Read the Wind have a direct influence over the arrow's speed. Once a projectile is in the air, it's path cannot be changed, and the projectile cannot be stopped in mid air.

Like most skills, attacks can be cancelled manually by pressing the 'ESC' key, or by forcing your character to move. If this action is performed successfully, it then enters 'hit' phase. The speed at which the attack is made can also be influenced by skills. Any energy requirements needed to use attack skills are taken off as soon as the attack begins.

Interruption
Because the process of the attack takes time, it can be iterrupted using specific skills, and will prevent the player from completing the attack, and therefore preventing any damage done. This also prevents the target from reaching the 'hit' stage as well as preventing them from activation any skills that would activate at the end of the attack process. Because an attack is classed as an action, any skills that denote "Interrupt target foe's action" will interrupt attacks as well. Savage shot can interrupt the target foe's attack if it successfully hits, and can interrupt the attack anytime throughout the process. Leech signet performs the same action, but it is not bound by the requirements of successful hitting, and will interrupt the attack regardless (unless leech signet is also interrupted). Certain skills such as clumsiness are rather interesting, because they can only interrupt the end of the attack process (before the hit). This means that if a person hexed with Clumsiness realises that he or she is hexed, then that person can then cancel the attack before it is complete, and can therefore avoid the effects of Clumsiness. Good reflexes are required, however...

Skills that Influence attacks
This is where a big misinterpretation of some skills can be found, as some believe that particular skills are worded incorrectly because such skills activate even if the attack misses - but as long as the attack is performed without interruption; hit or miss, the attack was still performed, that is what causes the skill to activate. If the skill requires "upon miss" or "upon hit" to be activated, then it should be stated in the skill.

influences: Positive
Certain skills can influence the effects of the attacking process in a positive way. These skills can affect the attack process, and can be activated in three different ways:
1. At the start of the attack ([W] Cyclone axe, Triple Chop) (Untested: [W] Crude Swing, Sun and Moon Slash, [R] Dual Shot)
2. While you are attacking ([Mo] Signet of Rejuvenation, [A] Flashing Blades, Shadow Refuge) (IAS: [W] I Will Avenge You!, Beserker Stance, Tiger Stance, Flurry, Frenzy, [R] Beastial Fury, Call of Haste (for Pet), Tiger's Fury, Lightning Reflexes, [N] Reckless Haste).
3. Near the end of the attack (before the 'hit' phase)([Mo] Vigorous Spirit, [Me] Illusionary Weaponry) (Untested: [N] Dark Fury).

Influences: Negative
Holding similar properties to positive influences, these skills can activate in two ways:
1. While you are attacking ([Me] Images of Remorse, [Mo] Bane Signet, Smite, Spear of Light, [N] Soul Bind, [Rt] Wailing Weapon, [W] Counter Blow, [E] Lightning Javelin, Tentali's Wind, Whirlwind, Silver Armor, Unsteady Ground) (DAS: [N] Fainthartedness, Shadow of Fear, Soul Bind).
2. Near the end of the attack (before the 'hit' phase) ([Me] Empathy, Spirit Shackles, Ineptitude, Clumsiness [N] Spoil Victor, Spiteful Spirit).

Attacks that are activated at the end are conditional, so you can manually cancel the attack to avoid any effects from that attack.

Attack Prevention
Certain skills can prevent the target from attacking completely. The only insignificant benefit to this is that it prevents you from taking any negative attack influences mentioned above, and you avoid having your attacks interrupted. Such skills are: ([Mo] Pacifism, Amity, [Rt] Binding Chains).

Blindness
Not much to say here, you're blind... It's a wonder you're still able to read this.

Block and Evasion
I only recently realised that block/evasion are calculated before the hit, and it makes sense as well, because you can't get hit and then evade it afterwards. Anyway, like an idiot, I realised this the hard way, which was through reading the skill descriptions.

There are two different implications when it comes to the word attack (This is the second implication) and it depends entirely upon how the sentence is constructed. In some skills you will see the following explanation:

Quote:

Escape. For 5...15 seconds, you move 25% faster than normal and have a 75% chance to "evade" attacks.

Now the problem with this is that in all other skill descriptions, the attack is accompanied by words similar to 'hit' in order to fulfill a 'successful attack', or the skill would only need to have words similar to 'hit' and the 'attack' phase would be implied (You cant plant a hit without attacking first). Example:

Quote:

Axe Rake. If this attack hits a foe suffering from a Deep Wound, you strike for +1...8 damage, and that foe becomes Crippled for 15 seconds.

Determined Shot. If Determined Shot hits, you strike for +5...20 damage. If Determined Shot fails to hit, all of your attack skills are recharged.

Now in the first instance, (Skill: Escape) there is no indication that the attack has to hit in order for it to be evaded. This means that the attack is evaded before you hit, resulting in an unsuccessful hit - but a successful attack (which is why skills such as empathy will still apply). Now this also means that Block and Evasion are the last defenses to be calculated (Otherwise it should say "successful attacks" in the skill description), which means you still have to go through blindness and miss-hexes before these apply.

(1)Without the 'hit' component in the skill description, it suggests that all of the effects that can happen to an attack prior to the hit will apply (including the effects that blindness and hexes have on the attack). The implication of evading/blocking 'attacks' means that your attack will still be blocked/evaded even if your attack was going to miss anyway.

(2)However, if the skill description read "75% chance to evade successful attacks", it would mean that you wouldnt 'need' to evade it if the attack was going to miss due to blindness/hexes in the first place, which makes alot more sense... *scratches head*.

Now this only raises another issue of possible description flaws:

Quote:

Swift Chop. If this attack hits, you strike for +1...16 damage. If Swift Chop is "blocked," your target suffers a Deep Wound for 20 seconds and takes an additional 1...16 damage. Swift Chop cannot be "evaded."

Now I labelled (1) and (2) for good reasons. If I'm right, in actuality, if swift chop misses altogether, nothing applies. If (1) occured even if you we're going to miss, then the 'blocked' section of swift chop is supposed to apply, because the effects of deep wound and the additional 1...16 damage aren't triggered by the 'hit' component. And of course, if it represented (2) instead, the "blocked" effect would not apply if the target was previously blinded or hexed.

Hit
In the many skills listed, a hit can also be called a 'strike', a 'successful attack', and a past-tense 'struck'. In order to meet the requirements of a hit, you must have not been interrupted, you must not be blocked or evaded, and you must not be blind. All attack skills will have incorporated one of these words, save for the Assassin's Desparate Strike which needs to be fixed.

Pick Me · Jul 12, 2006, 08:21 PM // 20:21

If what you say is true, then why is Vampiric Bite and Touch an exception to this rule? They are skills, that do or do not "attack" someone. Now, if it is an attack, then it should be still affected by normal defenses, such as evading, blinded, blocking, etc. I mean realisitcally, if you have a blind necromancer trying to bite you, then you step away (evading it), the necro will be biting air. Am I right?

Now, lets say its not an "attack". The the Ranger Expertise Attribute should not apply. It will decrease energy costs to "attack skills, traps, and preparations". If Vampiric Touch/Bite is not classified as an attack skill, then it shouldn't be affected by Expertise. Am I right?

Please advise me on this.

Thanks.

Terra Xin · Jul 18, 2006, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Man I totally forgot about this thread :P

The best thing I can say about situations like these is to make a comment about all 'touch' related skills. Now of course you're completely right in saying that you should be able to evade touch skills from a blinded person. The problem with this lies within a universal mechanic - that is: "When you're blind, you have a 90% chance to miss with attacks". In pure definition, if you are blind, you cannot target your enemy, and so any attacks, skills and spells will most likely miss, because you dont know who you are attacking. But, this is Anet's definition to blindness.

The best answer that I can give you that would state that such 'touch' skills cannot be classed as attacks, is simply because attacks cannot be made without use of a weapon. GuildWars' definition of 'weapons' are swords, axes, hammers, staves, wands, bows and daggers. In instances where a weapon is not used; cannot be classed as an attack. Now that we know this, you can see where Anet's limits are when looking at attacks, skills and spells. It's similar to the reason why you cannot attack with fists... even though NPC's can.

Now with reference to the Ranger's Expertise... see the problem that they may be having is that if they take out the word 'attack' from their definition, and just leave it as 'skills' then people are going to start assuming that rangers get bonuses with 'all' skills, because that's what they all are. What should actually be done is to have the word 'skill' located in the short definition (of skills such as Vampiric Bite, Shock, Blackout, etc) re-worded to something like "Feat" or "Touch Skill" and then have the Ranger's Expertise definition include this as well. That way there will be a clear definition between skills, attack skills and touch skills/feats.

On an unrelated note, I reckon they had a hell of a time deciding to make the smite skill an 'attack'. It's the only attack skill in the game that can be used with any weapon. Because if they made smite an 'attack skill', then it would require a specific weapon to be useable. And monks dont profess in any weaponry.

Terra Xin · Jul 25, 2006, 09:16 AM // 09:16

come on,... need more criticisms!!

Pick Me · Jul 25, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Thanks for clearing up the Vampiric "attacks" for me.

Okay, lets talk about "Hit". I can't remember who, but someone asked for a clearer definition on Weaken Knees. Now the hex works if the target is struck while moving. The question was raised, what is the definition of struck. Why do some spells work and others don't. The spells that work, we believe, say "struck" in the definition of the spell (like chain lightning). Other spells (like vampiric bite) does not say struck or strike, thus does not seem to meet the critieria of Weaken Knees. Is our theory correct, if the spell has the word "struck" or "strikes" in its definition, it will trigger Weaken Knees (assuming target is moving), or is it only weapons that satisfy this criteria?

And since we are on the subject, movement, what is the definition of Fleeing? Coward says only works on fleeing target. Someone said it is when their back is towards you and they are moving. Is this correct? I mean, it is logical, but ANet may have a different interpretation.

Thanks.

Terra Xin · Jul 29, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

That fleeing one is stupid, it should say "if target foe is moving". A warrior should still be able to call a target "Coward!" if the target is moving, because its the warrior that wants the target to keep still, so shouting out such things should get the job done.

Weaken Knees description is incomplete... thats all I can say. It would have been more accurate to say "If target foe is hit with an attack while moving" then it would make more sense. Theres an old thread somewhere on this site... I'll have to go look for it. But yeah you're right, based on the description of the skill, the target should fall if struck by such skills as chain lightning.